Esentially Text pattern is a multi-blogging platform and you can create unlimited sections (blogs) and all posts get assigned to a section. In other words, it is nothing but a blogging platform that can also be used as a CMS.

I have to agree with JM about Textpattern tags– they are a lot easier to deal with than WordPress’s php.

Let me come back to this rant I had 7 months ago…

First of all sorry that I really wondered off and never got around finalising the template plugin that I said I would do, as I lost interest in TXP all together. Let along releasing it.

These days I run most my sites on WordPress or Drupal. Yeah — Gorden — I would really recommend Drupal for its modularity and flexibility. It might be a bit complicated and awkward in the beginning, but the default installation with minimum modules is actually quite light-weight.

I guess the rational is, although you said that you don’t need forums, galleries and all other gimmicks right now, will you like to have them in the future? Is there a possibility that you want to run an integrated forum to serve your growing reader community?

I picked WordPress to run several of my sites that I thought would be small, but now I wish I had used Drupal which allows me to extend that small site into a user community.

I crashed and burned the instant that I tried the templating!! I literally spent 3 hours searching for a template manager because I just could not believe that I would be required to cut-n-paste SEVENTEEN separate files (for one particular theme from TextGarden) to try out one theme. At least with Drupal/e107 etc you just upload a COMPLETE new theme in one zip file and then check it out by going to the theme manager and checking one box.

But I am still stuck on what to use… what I basically need is something with a reasonably flexible static content management system that allows a reasonable hierarchy (chapters, sections, subsections etc) but I don’t need forums, multiple users, e-commerce etc.

Cheers

Gordon

I won’t get into the debate but for the record, I love both wordpress and textpattern for different purposes. In fact, even now after more than just 24 hours with textpattern I still think wordpress serves a different class of user. Textpattern is a different product, not really designed for blogging but has some useful features for someone who wants to build a blog into their CMS website. If all you need is a really robust blog and a few other pages, WP is definitely the fit. If you want a full-fledged website CMS with photo galleries, portfolio, newspaper/magazine layout, etc. and a blog included in all of that, then TXP will have a little more to offer.

I think it’s unfair to rule out one other the other in general terms or label one bad or good. Django is another powerful application which serves a whole different need. Personally I’m not at a point where I need it right now and there are things I don’t like about it, but I’m not about to say it’s a bad application. It is in fact a fabulous app for the purpose for which it was built… newspaper websites. I am not a newspaper, so my needs are very different.

I’ve used wordpress in the past, but I finally switched to Textpattern in December. It’s more versatile, since it is a CMS that can be used as a blog utility, photo gallery, design portfolio, etcetera. That’s exactly what I’ve done with my site.

As far as templating, I don’t have a problem with the forms and pages being stored alongside articles in the database. I backup my database every few weeks, so it’s not a problem. Plus, I usually have a copy of all my forms and pages saved on a local install. My CSS is kept in an external file since it’s faster.

One of the biggest selling points for TXP is the XML-style templating. It’s much easier to pickup than PHP, as used in WordPress. The last version of WP I used was 1.5.x, so I’m not sure if that has changed.

From my experience, Textpattern is much easier to learn and use than WordPress. I’ve only edited the Textpattern core files twice, so I’m not into hacking. It’s not needed since templating isn’t done in the php files. Plus, hundreds of plugins exist to modify textpattern.

On the trackbacks issue, I personally hope they’ll never make it into the core. When I used wordpress, I had trackback spam within the first week. Currently, I have a robot/retard looking for trackback.php on my site (going strong after three months and a .htaccess ban for their static IP). From that, I’m thankful for textpattern’s lack of trackback/pingback support.

[comment previews are another great feature–Typos are guaranteed in this post! :P)

Does that matter?

Er, doesn’t it? I took my cue from what you said you were looking for. Obviously you are/were doing a needs/wants assessment, and you think the software’s goals and approach to said goals come into the equation somewhere, otherwise you wouldn’t stop to think “I want something that will do this, this way…”

Does “being a simple CMS” excempted from “making sense”?

It does make sense – it can’t be completely obtuse or no one would use it – it just has completely different goals and approach than what you appear to be looking for or used to.

WordPress is blogger-centric, but Textpattern is general publishing-centric; they have different purposes in mind. That doesn’t make it inferior in general, though perhaps inferior in meeting your specific needs if you want things not (yet/ever) supported or just not handled the way you’d prefer.

…that has appeared way too many times when the TXP camp tried to excuse themselves.

I think that’s an unfair assessment, that appears to be suggesting something about the developers or the development process used, which you couldn’t possibly know. But obviously you’ve got a right to your opinion and to state it, including on your own blog (and generously allowing me and others to respond).

In fact there are probably more installations of TXP as blogging app than using it as CMS, though the line between “CMS” and “blogging app” is quite blurry.

Textpattern is used for a lot of portfolios, actually. If it’s in your interest, you should check out the “Let’s See Yours, Then” Textpattern forum or the TXP Magazine Sites Collection for a sampling of what else people are doing with Textpattern. That gives, I think, a fuller view of what Textpattern sets to accomplish and will help you figure out if and when you would use it.

As of 4.0.3 being buggy actually I have never stated that. I especially extracted out 3 old issues I had 18+ months ago that are still present today, but I did not comment on the quality of the code nor its default template.

Fair enough, that’s what I had taken “The Bad and Ugly from my previous review still stands…” to mean (I then read the older review, which says that).

Maybe that just shows TXP lacks proper spam protection mechanism?

No. As you are aware, when you leave a comment, you actually use a browser to do so. When you ping, you do not. Two very effective – thus far, anyway – antispam measures Textpattern uses involve checking whether it is a real person making the comment, as opposed to a bot or script. Trackbacks/pingbacks are not done in the same manner as comments, it is all instant (or nearly) and “silent”. It’s just not possible to extend these protections because no html page is loaded, no form inputs and buttons are involved.

The rest of the measures, as I said, could be applied to trackback, but few people have actually requested said feature.

What is the “content” of a website, from the Content Management System’s perspective?

Whatever you tell it to be. Is “content versus presentation” not about separating the two, making it possible to easily change one without touching the other, rather than about the format each exists in?

WordPress makes the divide of content being in the database, everything else in flat files, easily changed but not touching the other. In Textpattern they are still separated, rather into different tables (images and files being a _current_ exception), easily changed without touching the other. That doesn’t mean it will always be this way, that’s just how it stands now.

Having a preferred storage mode for said content and presentation is a legitimate want/need, no question there. “Easily” is where user experience and preference comes in. Personally, I prefer it being in the database and in a textarea, so for me not a problem (though I agree much can be done to improve the experience). You prefer your text editor, as I’ve seen others do too, which is fine. Typically, though, do you not prefer doing that (flat files) for making whole designs or large portions of markup/code, rather than small changes later on? As you tinker with Textpattern you may find that the non-filesness of Textpattern can have it’s ease-of-use advantages too.

I think you have missed my point.

In one aspect, yes: with regard to entering content via a textarea; I wasn’t sure which textarea(s) you were including, so I just covered them all.

I shall look at Woods-Fehr’s implementation, and I’ll release mine when it is ready for public consumption.

Please do, even if it never gets to the public consumption phase. I’m sure it would be very useful.

Thanks for the reply. Let me try to respond.

Part of the problem is, you’re looking for “a simple blogging app”, and Textpattern isn’t one and doesn’t try to be; it’s a simple cms with a sprinkle of blog-like features.

Does that matter? Does “being a simple CMS” excempted from “making sense”? Actually, “TXP is a CMS and WP is just a blogging tool” — that has appeared way too many times when the TXP camp tried to execuse themselves. In fact there are probably more installations of TXP as blogging app than using it as CMS, though the line between “CMS” and “blogging app” is quite blurry.

As of 4.0.3 being buggy — actually I have never stated that. I especially extracted out 3 old issues I had 18+ months ago that are still present today, but I did not comment on the quality of the code nor its default template.

Very few users of Textpattern keep the original theme, while very many WP users do (or did, anyway).

It is all relative. There are way more WP sites out there. While there might be relatively more WP users who never bother changing his/her default template, there are still more WP sites with their own customisation.

At the same time you can argue Kubrick in WP is a relatively more useful template than TXP’s default.

Comments are protected by a series of mechanisms, some of which not possible in trackback.

Maybe that just shows TXP lacks proper spam protection mechanism? My WP sites got spam trackbacks all the time, but all properly blocked by its layers of protection. As far a I could care, their implementation works. So why TXP doesn’t?

You’re confusing content versus presentation with storage mode.

No I am not. What is the “content” of a website, from the Content Management System’s perspective? The pages, but not necessarily the presentation. If I am designing a site template for a living for example, I would like to have version control — which can be difficult to do if your “presentation” is inside the database.

I am happy to have the app managing the “content”. However to manage the app (including corresponding presentation of the app), I would like to leave them as files in FS.

This can easily be another plugin. It wouldn’t be difficult to add syntax highlighting for the “preview” mode for Textile in the write tab, though. There’s another Textpattern plugin which allows you to use the Tab key, just like in text editors. It was not until a recent edition of WordPress when TinyMCE was added…

I think you have missed my point. I don’t want to use textarea. I don’t want to use TinyMCE (or FCKeditor or HTMLarea or …). I was not talking about editing the “content” of the website/blog site. I was talking about editing the template inside my preferred text editor. On the file sytsem, no HTTP transaction is involved.

I have stated my reason. I preferred to edit the templates on an identical test site with text editor, and then use rsync/unison to move the “new presentation” together with “live content”. I don’t want to do it over the web.

With regard to editing pages, styles and forms in textareas, someone made it possible to power forms and so on via files, so I don’t see it being very much of a problem anymore. http://www.woods-fehr.com/txp/8/link-template-2-file

Well. Thank you. This is what I am looking for — being able to link templates/stylesheets with a text file. I have actually wacked my own hack to do exactly the same thing since I wrote this post, and it is currently powering my new TXP site.

I shall look at Woods-Fehr’s implementation, and I’ll release mine when it is ready for public consumption.

> “The Bad and Ugly from my previous review still stands…”

Textpattern 4.0.3 cannot be described as buggy, nor having the same limited archiving problems; it is miles beyond g1.19 in most respects, even though the admin interface has changed little.

> “Ugly default template/stylesheet.”

It’s not ugly, just plain. Very few users of Textpattern keep the original theme, while very many WP users do (or did, anyway). That’s a _good_ thing: encouraging trading in a functional template for one more “pretty”, and hopefully, more unique.

> “Still no trackback support – Because the dev’s think it is an invitation to the spams. Doesn’t it apply to comments as well?”

No, it doesn’t. Comments are protected by a series of mechanisms, some of which not possible in trackback. Of those that are, it’s a far from “simple” addition. Alex’s other point is still very true: I’ve only seen a handful of requests for trackback support. I’ve only looked at the plugin/mod briefly, but it appears to have zero protections in place and has no method for removing spam should it occur.

> “Presentation should really be separated from content… if it was a TextPattern instead, not only all posts and comments are gone, so are the templates, stylesheets and the whole design as they are stored in the database.”

You’re confusing content versus presentation with storage mode. In any case, if you don’t take the time to backup, be it files or a database, you can’t blame your software (no matter what it is) if you delete everything and can’t get it back. It happens, it sucks, but such is the nature of things. There’s no reason not to anyway, there’s even plugins for this in both WordPress and Textpattern.

> ” != text editor. Editing HTML file inside textarea sucks. There is no syntax highlighting. No familiar key binding. Not available when site is off-line. Give me ViM please! (Actually I just edit the page/form inside ViM invoked by w3m browsing the TXP admin interface). I know you can do all that inside a proper text editor and then copy’n’paste into the textarea, but why an extra step?”

This can easily be another plugin. It wouldn’t be difficult to add syntax highlighting for the “preview” mode for Textile in the write tab, though. There’s another Textpattern plugin which allows you to use the Tab key, just like in text editors.

It was not until a recent edition of WordPress when TinyMCE was added. Before then, it was also a textarea (and if you edit your theme files via the control panel, it’s still a textarea). For some time, Textpattern has had a TinyMCE plugin, as well as a plugin for a Quicktags toolbar like WordPress used to have.

With regard to editing pages, styles and forms in textareas, someone made it possible to power forms and so on via files, so I don’t see it being very much of a problem anymore.
http://www.woods-fehr.com/txp/8/link-template-2-file

Your other points contain valid weaknesses (like full and proper theme support, easier plugin creation/management, some architecture issues, and so on). They have not yet fully been addressed in publicly available releases, but that said, they are well-known and being worked on by the developers.