According to this faq of a Chinese learning centre:
… The truth is, educated people in Mainland China and Taiwanese television or radio broadcasters speak Mandarin with little difference. However, it is true that Taiwanese people in general speak differently from Taiwanese television or radio broadcasters…
This is very true.
Recently I have been listening to Taiwanese radio online, and there is a lot of differences between the news broadcaster, show hosts and people calling in. One would speak perfect Mandarin with no difference to what has been broadcasted in CCTV. The other would start showing his/her lazy Taiwanese tongue by dropping off the tongue-rolling or nose sound here and there (plus Taiwanese slangs that you can’t find in the dictionary). Whereas the average general public who calls in would demonstrate what a true blue (or is that green) Taiwanese would sound like with a mix of Taiwanese Mandarin (so called 台灣國語) and Hokkien. 50+ years of Mandarin education pushed by the iron fist of national party in Taiwan has not changed much…
And do I sound Taiwanese to you? When I meet up with people from mainland China, they would usually say that my accent gave away where I grew up. However there was once someone from Taiwan nearly has her eyes pop out when she learnt that I actually came from Taiwan. “Taiwanese? No way.” I just don’t speak like one. And last couple of years when I went back to Taiwan for holidays, people in the shops, on the taxi, etc actually thought I was a Honkie or a mainland Chinese. I wonder which side is right.
Having been speaking Mandarin to the mainland Chinese most of the time, I started dislike what many young Taiwanese guys sound like, especially those in the radio shows. First of all, the tones they use sounds more gay than guy (sorry about my description) that just got me a cold chill down the spine. And the accent? Err! It is worse than listening to heavily accented American English. I am not sure whether I just happened to listen to the wrong radio station – but they all sound the same, over different stations at different time and different show. Just can’t stand it.
Oh. The reason I came across the above website is that I was looking for a good news/music radio live stream from Taiwan, as BCC has been down for the past 2 days. I prefer something that has good content, in Mandarin (not Hokkien or Cantonese or Hakka) and low bandwidth (RealMedia over 16-21kbps preferred). Last night the Chinese New Year Eve Vivian and I was listening to some Hong Kong radio channel that was supposed to be very good, except I can only catch 5% of the Cantonese…
Scott, interesting. Television channels in Indonesia have a considerable amount of programs delivered in English and Mandarin. While I can tell that most of the English speaking newsreaders have American accent, probably because they were educated there, I don’t really know what sort of accent the Mandarin speaking hosts speak. Perhaps I can record them and let you listen to it to tell.
Well. I might need to have a listen to figure out what kind of Mandarin are they speaking. I remembered that there was once an Indonesian couple came to MBF once (when Luke Wong was still here), and then they spoke “just like Taiwanese” as they went to Taipei for university. I guess the people around you provide the influence.
As far as I can tell, the Mandarin spoken in the three South East Asia countries (Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia) sounds different to mainland’s or Taiwanese. The one spoken on TV however, is considered to be more ‘educated’. It’s like in Singapore where people speak Singlish on the street but the newsreaders speak in British / American English.
This is an interesting topic, hope I am not intruding. People from different regions around the global have different accents and diverse slang. Chinese from Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei and even Indonesia tend to be heavily influenced by the lingua franca used locally within their own country. In South East Asia, some Malay words have amalgamated with the Chinese language (Mandarin and other Chinese dialects). Chinese from Mainland, Hongkong, Macau and Taiwan cannot comprehend certain terms used by the South East Asian Chinese. I personally have difficulty to understand technical terms used by our East Asian counterparts. What I have noticed, Mandarin accent in Indonesia is closer to those of Malaysian and Singaporean. Teachers from South East Asian countries taught children Mandarin with their own dialect accent. Hence, these young children grew up with incorrect pronunciation or phonetic tone. Try to ask them pronounce prawn/shrimp in Mandarin. Fortunately, the younger generations who studied Hanyi Pinyin and watch satellite/cable TV are able to correct the common mistakes.
Singlish is a shocking version of English which is similar to the Mandarin they use in Singapore. I personally don’t think that is something to be proud of. Similar to Singlish, there is a Malaysian version. It is not publicly glorified because most people understand it is a verbal communication for those who have poor command of the English language. Since these South East Asian countries are multiracial and multilingual, to master a language when you’re trying to live in a truly dynamic environment, you just have to sacrifice certain quality. Hence, you will notice these people are able to communicate across different ethnics but not many are excellent in one language. Also, please take into consideration, South East Asian Chinese can speak English, Mandarin, Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka, Teochew, Foochow, Malay, Dayak, Tamil, Thai etc. I can read, write, speak and listen to at least 8 of these.
Then, we come to the East Asian Chinese. Predominately, most Chinese are bilingual with minimum one or two Chinese dialect(s) as part of the common lingua franca. Taiwan is traditionally under the Hokkien influence. People live with that dialect. In the past, Chinese dialects used to be classified as language with their own Chinese characters or writing. If it wasn’t the Qin dynasty we would have been the oriental version of Europe! Anyway, back to Taiwan, I would agree most Taiwanese guys do have softer and gentle voice. Hence, some people find it gay or feminine. Hey, it is their culture to produce cute looking guys rather than macho butch looking men. I think the best term here is new age sensitive guy which is commonly found in personal ads. Mandarin wise, I prefer the Mainland Chinese version over Taiwanese since the Taiwanese version of Mandarin is so mixed up. It is just like the Parker English versus the American English or the British accent versus the Kiwi accent. Pen sounds like pen, not sounds like pin. Hongkong and Macau are out when it comes to Mandarin. I squint every time one of the Hongkongese movie stars or singers speak Mandarin. They are so close to Mainland China yet they can’t speak a proper Mandarin. Cantonese wise is excellent, well hey it is part of the Kwangtung province anyway so they should be good at it. However, the world does not evolve around the Cantonese dialect or Hongkong. Majority still choose Mandarin. Accent wise, we all have it. Those who speak like Americans, worship the American. Those who speak British accent, appreciate authenticity. Those who speak in between are either totally confuse or can’t read dictionary. I have come across South African and Zimbabwe accents. They have a distinctive old English accent with a mixture of German or Dutch. :o) This is the reality of our global society.
Hi, any idea where I can listen online on taiwanese chinese oldies including hokkien songs?
Thanks in advance
This topic is interesting to me as I’m a host of an audio cast that teaches non-Chinese Mandarin Chinese over the Internet. Now the key is, we are located in Taiwan. That’s right, Taiwan. From the comments made here, the Taiwan accent is looked down upon. Now, let’s back up. Standard Mandarin Chinese and Mandarin Chinese hinted with local accents aren’t something new today. The Chinese region being as big as it is will always have this problem. Why? OK, for those of you who have traveled through out China you would have noticed that in some areas Mandarin Chinese ISN’T the language that is used the most daily. Mandarin Chinese is the language used so the local community can communicate with people from other regions. This is a fact easily noted in the Western parts of mainland China.
Now, broadcasters may come from the local region but they have the responsibly to broadcast only in Standard Mandarin Chinese because this is the common standard for regions. So broadcasters on CCTV and TVBS (Taiwan) generally use ONLY standard broadcast Mandarin. It’s like broadcasters from the southern part of the US using their local accent at home, but once on-the-air a switch to standard pronunciation is made.
So to say “…Taiwanese people in general speak differently from Taiwanese television or radio broadcasters…” is very much off the point. If you go to Beijing you will find that the typical person from Beijing doesn’t sound like a CCTV announcer. Speaking in the standard form of a language takes training no matter where you are from. Please remember that Beijing accented Mandarin Chinese ISN’T standard Mandarin Chinese. Mandarin Chinese is in fact based on the Beijing accented Chinese ( see http://worldlearnerchinese.com/news/2007/12/19/don%e2%80%99t-sound-like-a-native )
Which brings back the question is it really that “bad” to sound like a person from Taiwan or any other Mandarin Chinese speaking region? Is proper communication or pronunciation the purpose of your personal contacts? Does everyone attending the People’s Congress speak standard Mandarin Chinese? I don’t think so. I’m not defending any accent. Standard Mandarin Chinese and regional accented Mandarin Chinese shouldn’t be judged as the same exact thing. Proper Standard Mandarin Chinese should be the connection form of Chinese.
James
World Learner Chinese
http://www.worldlearnerchinese.com
I support James’ comment on that. There’s no point commenting on different accents as they’re developed and served speakers in specifc areas. A standard form of any language is mostly constructed mostly by a central authority for one purpose, that is, to be a median of communication amongst different localities.
For instance, the standard British accent, or Received Pronnciation (RP) that you may hear from BBC is not the accent most of the Brits speak. Of course it’s based on the southeastern British dialect where London is situated, but it doesn’t mean that the mojority of Londerners speak that accent. The only survival speakers could be the Royal Family, ruling class and Oxbridge educated people. Recently, even the BBC news reporters are more relaxing on their strict PP accent. (you can check BBC website for this information).
So, why make a big deal out of this issue. It’s just a matter of choice. You just can’t force everybody to do everything standard. Or, in fact, standard doesn’t really exist. Ironically, the status of ‘standardised form’ is so insecure and rigid that it has to be protected, promoted and preserved, while ‘local forms’ are fluid, flexible, and adaptive enough to survive.
In my opinion, whatever accent you speak it doesn’t matter if you can communicate your idea and information effectively. Isn’t that the goal of using languages? Perhaps, we need to just stop and think back to origin of things!
Thanks,
Canberra Man
Canberra Man:
I think you missed out on the point of languages. One of the main functions of language is to communicate power, class and status.
This is closely related to languages, accents. Whatever language or accent that is preserved is power and authority. Look at the Bible as world politics changes. Hebrew to Ancient Greek to Latin to various languages like Italian, Spanish, French, German and then English (King James version), now mostly US style evangelicals.
In Singapore, the dictator is a Hakka (a minority of little importance to other bigger Chinese communities like Hokkien, Teochew and Cantonese). In order to use the British colonial strategy to “divide and control”, languages other than Mandarin are banned. English is the official strategy so the government can imitate or copy (which the uncreative Chinese are so prone to do instead of coming up with original solutions) the colonial administrative strategy of controlling commerce and society using English, and also dividing strong clannish communities into various residential communities to “divide”, “control” and to “contain” them. Replacing other authentic Chinese languages with Mandarin is one way to do that. “Mandarin” is not actually a Chinese language. It’s origins are modern (Qin Dynasty). Mandarin is a bastardized version of pure Chinese mixed with Manchu due to the invasions of the Northern Barbarians (Mongols, Manchu) in Northern plains of China (Beijing, Tianjin, etc.). Mandarin as we know it today is not a “Chinese language” but a bastardized language that is indoctrinated as the official language.
The original Chinese language is called MIDDLE CHINESE. It sounds more like proto-Hakka and proto-Cantonese and Minnan group of languages, since most of the Middle Chinese aristocrats and families fled South during the Barbarian invasions. The “purest” form of MIDDLE CHINESE is closer to Southern Chinese than Northern Chinese, with end-stops after syllables (a feature in modern Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka but not in Mandarin). If you take MIDDLE CHINESE as LATIN, then modern day Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka are like Spanish, Italian and Portuguese / Basque.
Mandarin is like English. It’s not from the region but brought in by brutal invasions of the Mongols/Manchus. English was brought into Albion through the German tribe of Anglo-Saxons who massacred the native Welsh, Gaelic peoples of Albion (England), Scotland and Ireland and instituted their “Queens’ English” which is actually a bastardized German version of English on the newly created Great Britain and United Kingdom. If you look at the bloodline of English monarchy, the present one is not of English but German Ancestry. That’s why they killed Princess Diana.
Princess Diana is in some way the true English Queen. If you look at Diana, you will realise she has softer Gaelic / English features, her large eyes, her lips, her bronzy white skin and rich honey blonde hair. That’s an English trait.
If you look at the Queen and English monarchy, you will realise they have different features – very thin lips, pasty white skin, thin wispy blonde-reddish hair. These are Germanic features. However, they “Englished” themselves to control the population, though not very successful.
United Kingdom of today is broken up by independence movements from the Northern Irish (Southern Irish already left – Eire), Scotland, England and now even little Wales wants to reclaim its original Welsh culture away from the hollow promise of the former “Great Britain”.
In contrast, Singapore and PRC are on the path of nationalism and expansion that is so passe in Europe (people yawn when they hear of lies of nationalism, they only associate nationalism with Nazis, Hitlers who massacred the Jews, ex-colonialists etc.) and the population in Asia are not as literate or educated, less than 1 per cent of the population know or read History, most read propaganda and history is a banned subject with propagandistic versions being taught in schools and universities (as in Japan). While many are forced to learn mathematics, computer sciences to church out economic figures spelling MONEY for the government (taxes) and the mysterious “motherland”.
There is no “true language”. Language is social construct used to control the stupid masses.
Procreating your progeny does not require language, just sexual intercourse or a sperm bank and IVF. Living does not require language just eating and shitting.
If you look at the animal kingdom, most animals do not have languages, they just send each other “signals”. Only humans have languages.
Languages are complex signals used to control the power of the society. Accents convey authority of the lack of it. Depending on the state of the world economy, different social statuses are conveyed via different accents.
In the Anglo-Saxon world, the current state of power is thus.
Accents:
1. American (Mid-Atlantic – constructed accent)
2. American (Californian accent – popularised by Hollywood)
3. American (New York – Brooklyn, Bronx, Jewish)
4. American (Texan – popularised by George Bush)
5. American (Southern accent – popularised by Tennessee Williams, Julia Roberts)
6. British (BBC – with a stranglehold over UK and Commonwealth but now weak since UK has a weak economy and within UK itself, accents are proliferating as political devolution occurs)
7. British (Queens’ English) – nostalgic of the times when Queens’ English ruled, literally the WORLD, from India to China to USA.
8. French (Parisian-accented English) – mostly to connote sex or sexiness due to Brigitte Bardot and other French pussycat screen sirens.
9. Italian (fashionable due to brands like Gucci, Prada)
10. Spanish / Portuguese / Argentinian / Brazilian (due to Miss Universe contest, their beautiful bevy of exotic men and women like Rodrigo Santoro)
11. German (not a fashionable accent due to associations with Holocaust, Hitler, Murder, one of the most unpopular accents)
12. Accents of former CIS such as Estonia, Latvia, etc. Not popular, seen as third world English – only popular in places like Hong Kong and Singapore where their “whiteness” is worshipped without understanding of their origins.
13. Very unpopular – Russian – due to fall of Soviet Empire and horrors and excesses of Soviet Empire.
14. Turkish, Jordanian, Lebanese accents – not popular
15. Iraq, Iran (no English spoken)
In the Asian world, Mandarin is most popular.
1. PRC Beijing Mandarin – most popular due to national radio top-down command control over half a century.
2. Americanised Mandarin – popular due to wide Taiwanese, Hong Kong, Singapore, PRC, Korean immigration to US and back to Asia….fake Americanised Mandarin is Taiwan’s current export to the Mainland market.
3. Taiwanese Mandarin – very popular in Mainland due to Taiwanese wealth but in the last 10 years, due to the failing state of Taiwanese economy and politics, not as popular.
4. Singaporese Mandarin – due to rise of a popular idol called Sun Yanzi in Beijing (it sounds like a combination of 1, 2 and 3)
5. Hong Kong Mandarin – PRC people don’t think it’s Mandarin; hearing Cantonese speaking Mandarin is like hearing ducks quack.
In Cantonese:
1. Kwangtung (de factor capital of commerce in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries with colonial trades between China and UK, France, America etc.)
2. replaced by Hong Kong after Communists took over
3. After death of Hong Kong in 1997-2003, Cantonese has fallen out of the “prestigious” languages and completed transplanted by Mandarin.
In Hoklo-Hokkien:
1. Amoy (2nd largest port after Kwangtung in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries); death of port as PRC closed up.
2. Taipei, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur (largest group of Fujianese with political freedom)
3. Taipei (as both Singapore and KL abandoned use of “dialects”) and PRC closed up and replaced all languages with Mandarin.
4. Taipei and Amoy (as PRC opens, Fujianese products find a larger PRC market)
In Hakka:
1. In high political cities, Hakka is the Jewish of Asia. Families keep to tradition and preserve Hakka at home like Yiddish. Hakka is almost a religion. Sun Yat-sen, Leslie Cheung and all the important people of China had been Hakka.
In other Chinese dialects
1. Wenzhou-ese (Paris – largest Chinese community in Paris)
2. Cantonese-Toisanese (Sunnyvale, CA; Stockton; CA due to immigration to San Francisco and Bay area for gold)
3. Cantonese-Toisanese from Guangdong and Hong Kong (New York, NY; due to immigration)
4. Fuzhou (Immigration to Singapore in 19th Century, then to Hong Kong)…now to London and New York
5. Mandarin dialects (now to all cities of the world with opening up of PRC including Paris, New York, LA, Boston, DC, Seattle, Chicago, Phoenix, Dallas, San Francisco, LA) gradually replacing Cantonese as immigrant language since all the Cantonese Chinese immigrants are now at least 3rd generation and cannot speak Cantonese anymore – mostly speaking US English.
In the current 2008 scheme of things, your language determines your wealth and status.
1. SWEDISH
2. NORWEGIAN
3. DANISH
4. DUTCH
5. ENGLISH
2. GERMAN
Most Asian languages still score low since almost all of the rich people of Asia like Li-Ka-shing, Lee Kuan Yew, children of top PRC officials all speak English.
The most powerful language of commerce in Asia is not Mandarin but Japanese.
Japan is still the world’s largest economy. Japan controls a majority of US shareholdings and Japanese only communicate predominately in Japanese as they were never colonized (although they lost WW2) unlike PRC, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, KL.
In Asia, the one speaking Japanese is most likely the richest, followed by those speaking good English, and then those speaking native excellent Beijing Mandarin / Shanghai Mandarin, all the rest speaking less than good English/Mandarin are working class. Most of the people speaking Mandarin are peasants still, immigrants.
Those speaking dialects are mostly in their 70s-80s.
Yea most Taiwanese have a Taiwan accent. Even 18 years after I married Ling, sometimes I have trouble understanding the occasional word. Still the most important thing is to be understood.
When I speak to Ling’s mom, I use Chinglish since she is only fluent in Taiwanese and Japanese. It is rare for us not to more or less understand eachother.
Whether from Mainland, Taiwan, or Oceania, people understand my Mandarin which is all I care about. On a few occasions I’ve started conversations in Mandarin, and had them reply in English until the person I was speaking to realized I spoke Chinese.
You can sometimes tell a foreign speaker’s mother tounge by how he/ she constructs a sentence by where they put the verb when speaking Mandarin. English speakers will normally put the verb in the middle. Speakers of other Romace languages will always put it on the end.