Now I know being a Christian myself that I once held on to a belief a faith that God was against homosexuality. I was once gay and now had become a born again Charismatic Christian who looked at scripture literally and saw that God said homosexuality was sin (Rom 1, I Cor. 6 etc..) I lived the straight life and was content in dating women and being very active in Church life and ministry. I was even on staff of an ex-gay ministry and ministered to men and women desiring not to be in the “gay lifestyle”. But after 20 plus years I realized that I was still attracted to men.

I as well studied scripture and saw that the words that were used for homosexual were far from that and in fact did not say homosexual (check out the Greek). As well I even looked at even the OT story of Sodom and saw a truer picture of what the story was about (men who were viewed as either criminals or enemy spies being molested to humiliate them. Besides all the men of Sodom could not be gay could they). I had to rethink and reevaluate my life on the truth I was receiving.

I knew in my heart I was gay and that was never anything I had chosen to be or do. For whatever reason only God knows I was and I had to come to terms with that from a biblical/moral stance as well as a personal one. This was in light of all the prayer, deliverance, intercession, teaching (a lot of the teaching on ex-gay work is more psychological than biblical), confession, accountability that I had lived and worked on the last 20 plus years.

Not an easy road to follow for now I was a double Samaritan. I say that because we gays are the new Samaritans of certain segments of the church and as well I was a Christian and some pastor said I was an oxymoron. Not accepted by the conservative church that I was a part of and loved and misunderstood by the gay community because so many had been rejected by the church and their families because of their homosexuality.

But life does indeed go on and my hopes and prayers are for those brothers and sisters who so desperately cling to a false biblical belief system about homosexuality. How far removed it is from the God, the Jesus of Scripture. One day we will view gay men and lesbians with the eyes of God and see them made in His image not their sexual preference/anatomy. We will see like the church has seen in the past dealing with slavery, women’s rights, inter-racial marriage that this will not destroy the family. In fact there is nothing wrong with it from an ethical, biblical, sociological or psychological viewpoint. We will come to understand that there is no “gay agenda” and being gay is not a “lifestyle” but just a part of the human condition that we all share in. One day…

I had seen a couple of comments that had mentioned “scientific discoveries”. Has any of it been even accepted by the reviewers of any reputed internationl scientific journal with a high impact factor, for publication? I can post thosands of web links to sites which claim alien abduction, the return of Elvis, etc.

I have normal interactions with homosexuals, in the work place and in the neighbourhood. The society is democratic and we have to respect other’s rights as long as they don’t infringe on others, as long as we live in a democratic society. Fair enough.

But the church of England is not a democratic insitution. It is based on laws given by God, through Christ. And these laws don’t change. Someone had quoted a lot of leviticus laws. Well, Christ changed the laws in that now He gives the punishments, not us. The maximum of eye-for-eye has been changed into show-your-other cheek. So we(who are all sinners in one way or other) are to welcome homo and heterosexual sinners into the church. But under no circumstances whatsoever, can any one who believes in the Bible, allow any individual who lives in open sin (either homosexual or heterosexual) to become an office bearer in the church of God. That is agianst God’s laws!

If we start to carry on with this sort of “accomodation”, there will be no end. Then why should the church of England stop with appointing just homosexuals into key positions? Why should the paediophiles be left out? Afterall, some other “scientific” study will prove that ” they too know what they think is attractive from their earliest sexual feelings, and those basic feelings don’t change much through their lives”. The church can issue a ” neo-affirmitive action policy” and start appointing swindlers, mass murderers, racists, etc as bishops. Poor loosers like Hitler, Genghis Khan, presidents Jackson,wilson,truman etc of USA, most of the turkish sultans, etc etc all missed their chances to become bishops: well, we can still rectify this. We can invite Osama Bin laden to become the next Achbishop of Canterbury! He will fit in well, he has already got a beard like Rowan williams.

We all make choices, as well. While I am attracted to members of my own gender, that does not mean I give in to those feelings, or even consciously acknowledge them. Just as you might pass an attractive man on the street, and have fleeting thoughts about him, or think he is nice to look at, I have the same thing. I do not act on every animal impulse I experience. No one does. It is natural to feel those things. But acting in a way that is contrary to the nature God gave you is as wrong as acting on every impulse you might have.

I lived for 14 years with a woman to whom I was not attracted. She is a wonderful person, with many qualities. She is still my dear friend. I also am a very nice person with wonderful qualities. I have two lovely children. I was forced into that by those who believe as you do that being gay was wrong, was evil, was an immoral choice. As a result, that lovely person has spent 14 years with the wrong man. Being gay is neither wrong nor immoral — for me. By listening to those of you who have no experience with this, who assume they can understand and dissect it, many like me are hurt, and in turn hurt lovely people by trying to live a life that is unnatural for them.

Keep in mind, that not too long ago, people assumed that the town drunk suffered from a lack of moral fortitude. We now know there is a medical reason for alcohol addiction. It is natural for some to crave alcohol, and their moral character is not involved at all. Keep in mind that women have been kept “in their place” for years by similar thinking about what they can do or should do — or not do.

Perhaps you could take a fresh look at something — the New Testament. Jesus replaced the old with the new, and admonistshed us to love one another. The Old Testament has been used to justify terrible evils in the world — slavery, intolerance, murder. Just as the Koran is being used by radical Muslims today. The New Testament has no such irrational judgements in it. Are you a radical or are you truly a Christian? Are you guided by the Old or the New? I pray for you.

And to Craig, your argument is clear in your last paragraph – Bible is not something that you need to take serious note about. There are New Testament verses that claim homosexuality is wrong. As Sam has noted above in Romans 1 as well as 1 Corinthians 6:9, we see that homosexuality is a sinful act that “cannot inherit the kingdom of God”. If you are a true Christian, you should be guided by the Bible – both the Old Testament and the New Testament, but you would read the Old Testament in the light of the New. Or are you guided by your own instinct? If you are a Christian, would you acknowledge what you have read in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6, those writings of Paul, are God’s word as well? We should indeed think seriously about what his word is trying to say and how does that imply us.

And about how natural one can be homosexual – yes I believe in you. At the same time, one can be a natural sinner. In fact we all are – it is just so natural that we will reject God and run the things our own way. But feeling natural about certain things do not mean it can be justified. A mass-murderer can feel natural killing innocent people, but that does not make his act okay. Something natural to you does not make it right in front of God’s eyes. So you ended up with 2 choice – either repent and confess that what you were doing is wrong, or reject God and his words in the Bible all together. Sadly many people today choose the later…

However we also need to note in 1 Corinthians 6 that homosexual is just one of the sin, and it is no worse than adultery, greed, etc that many people today also think they are okay. They too also cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So before we condemn, we too also need to look at ourselves to see whether there is something we need to confess. But you were washed. But you were santified. But you were justified. These words in 1 Corinthians 6:11 – aren’t they comforting!

And Craig, I see you were married with 2 children – what will they feel if you choose to leave this family? How can a father not teach the children with the instruction of the Lord, as commanded in Ephesians 6:4? That again shows how homosexuality does not work in a family dedicated to God…

I pray for you.

Scott — please re-read my comments about animal instincts — there is a range of acceptable behaviors, social norms if you will, to which any civilized society must adhere if it is survive. Mass murder, even if it “feels natural,” must by definition be wrong; it is a crime with victims. Realistically, you must also realize that the example, is, as you intended, quite stark, rare and extreme.

SIU and Scott:

Please keep in mind here that what I am describing to you is every bit the basic, survival instinct (and I chose that work carefully), that you feel toward the opposite sex, and which is clearly intended for survival. This puts it in a far different category than pornography or thievery. While homosexual acts do not propogate the species, the difference in my makeup is still that strong, that basic. We’re not talking about coveting a piece of property, or choosing not to do violence. Advancing that a bit, and putting it in a more contemporary societal setting, most of us believe that we were meant to meet someone, fall in love with them, settle down, and share our lives with that person. That is a large part of God’s plan for the vast majority of the population. That is what I want as well. It is simply and very clearly, for me, that that person is another man, not a woman.

My personal beliefs and values do not extend to promiscuity, and I do not support an agenda with multiple partners simply to satisfy a sexual urge. But most of us who want to be part of the flock feel as I do that we want what you want: to be accepted, with the flaws and the foibles and the limitations inherent in us all. It is no different in character than many of the flaws and shortcomings you can identify in yourself and in those around you.

Scott – regrettably, I am no longer — at least legally — married, and have not been for a number of years. It was not fair to either of us to continue to live lies. The children, who live with me, are aware of the situation, and love my partner as a step father. My former wife has remarried, and is living her life with someone who loves her deeply.

My sexuality — which I view as one of my gifts from God — is something that is, for all practical purposes, impossible to ignore or abandon. I do not have the strength of will to devote myself to a celibate, solitary life. Nor do I feel God has called me in that direction. Many gay men are promiscuous — as are many more straight men. Neither is right.

The movement to begin to accept natural limitations in one’s peers, even if one disagrees with the perceived choices that are made, is a solid and couragous step in the direction away from judgement. Just like you, I must accept the conseqences of what I do and fail to do in this life. Just like you, I will do wonderful and terrible things. Just like you, my faith will be my salvation.

To exclude people like myself from the community and forcing that underground is the same kind of approach that brough us prohibition — an “if I don’t see it, it isn’t there” approach.

The only “choice” I made was to stop deceiving myself and others. Would it be better if I lied? Would those less informed rather I present my partner as a “roommate” when that is blatently untrue? Perhaps those less informed would rather I not commune with the church at all. We all sin, we all seek salvation. The church should be open to all, and we all need to remember that, as well.

I’m sorry that sometimes people like us are too quick in judging something that we ourselves might not understand (like attractiveness to the same sex), but let me assure you that we are by no means trying to exclude you from the community. I have written something about this issue in my blog: http://sui.focuser.net/archives/000432.html maybe you want to check it out.

The real sticking point for me, in all of this, is that, in actuality, we tend these days to be devoted in what I will call “small” ways. By that I mean that few of us (at least few of us not doing missionary work in what some would call “backward countries”) are called on to make large sacrifices. We sacrifice financially, and time from personal affairs. We sacrifice such base pleasures as drinking, gluttony, sloth or adultery. We devote our time, as much as we can, to do God’s work. But we rarely have to give up our lives. We rarely have to sacrifice a limb. And for those of us who dedicate themselves exclusively to a spiritual path, as in the priesthood, that is a voluntary sacrifice, a choice, filled with rewards that far outstrip what was given up. I am not downplaying sacrifices made, merely putting them in perspective, and comparing them to those who died for their beliefs.

As I’ve indicated earlier, being a homosexual is a basic, primal item (for me and my ilk), on par in many instances with the need to eat and sleep. I cannot recall a day in which I was not aware of my homosexuality. That is not to say I was lusting after men around me, or daydreaming about them. All I mean to communicate is that this is, after all , inherent in my overall makeup. It is present in everything I do. It is as natural a thing to me as breathing. Few are called on to voluntarily give up breathing.

Let me share something with you that you may find surprizing. There have been some number of people (primarily men) I have met over the years who appear, to me anyway, to have actually chosen this way of life. Those shy with women. Those more unattractive than the norm. Those who are ruled by the need for sex. These are people whom I suspect take what is almost an easier path, and pursue looser men, when it is not natural for them, but rather less work, less effort than following a committed path with a woman. Rather than facing their shyness or their fears. There are the curious who simply wonder what it would be like, or those who drank too much and simply wanted sexual relief. For these people, if I am correct in what is admittedly a judgement of my brothers, homosexuality is indeed a sin. It is an excursion either into lust or away from being uncomfortable. I believe that kind of person to be the vast majority of those few who purport to have been “cured,” a claim of which I am dubious. Further, I believe much of what the Bible speaks of to be this kind of act. Another example: those sailors on ships who seek sexual relief with men when no willing woman is available, are an example of the sin of homosexuality. It is the sin of lust, which takes it’s form in same-sex activity.

For the rest of us, however, it is another story altogether. And, while it is not always handled with the degree of sensitivity you have, siu, the message that is being conveyed when gays are excluded from the church is something akin to: We think we know that it ‘might’ be an integral ‘instinct,’ we think we know it is your life you are sacrificing, but we don’t feel it, and we don’t experience it. We have our “normal” lives, and we think they’re fine, and we think it should be fine for you, too. So, just stop being so silly, and get with the program with the rest of us. Then you can worship with us; then you can live and work with us. Then you can be part of our church family. Then you can love. A woman. Or no one.

As I’ve said earlier, I have not found the strength to live a life alone, and I have not found the strength to continue to live a lie, after my 14 years of doing so. What I have found, is the profound assurance that I am loved, just as I am. By the man at my side. By my children. By the woman I wronged for 14 years by marrying her. By my lord. If he has called me to change my ways, and to sacrifice what is my life, I haven’t heard it. Perhaps I am being deceived. Perhaps satan is whispering those words of comfort to me. I do not believe it to be so. But even if that’s true, there are others being whispered to every day. There are those who sit next to you in church with their secret sin. There are those who do not try to resist, and they are all basically good people. The kind of people who try to devote themselves to the church and to God. They are accepted. Unquestionably. Undeniably. I am not.

Homosexuals today are the adulterers, alcoholics, divorced of yesteryear. We are the blacks of Mississippi in the 1950′s. We are those who are not welcome. We are those who chose to marry outside of the faith. We are those who, by virtue of their lack of virtue, cannot be a part of the church. Those older in your church will recognize the cruelty and injustice done to those poor souls I mentioned during those trying times in the churches. These are attiutdes that modern Christians, by and large, have rejected as inappropriate for the children of God. When will the community see that this is another example of over-piety at work, and allow the support of gay Christians in their church? When can the work done outstrip what occurs in a bedroom? When will those who do not understand accept us for the people we are and the works we do, and the beliefs we do share in common? that is the question that vexes.

I think that homosexuals have certainly been wronged by the church throughout history. I think homophobia is almost a natural instinct, just as you say that homosexuality is yours. I think homophobia has no place in the church, and many of us have to repent of it, but neither does the practice of homosexuality have any place in the church. Nor does adultery, lust, greed, deceit, and so on. All of these are instinctive to us because of our fallen nature, but wrong in God’s eyes. Even so, the church still needs to welcome the adulterer, the greedy, the liar, and the homosexual who repents, because the gospel is a message of grace and forgiveness.

We mustn’t throw sinners out of the church otherwise our churches would be empty. But we mustn’t condone sinning either. Don’t mistake us for the former when we are trying to do the latter.

Ultimately it comes down to whether God says this is right or wrong, not whether you feel comfortable about it. The Bible clearly states God’s position on the practice of homosexuality. Go search the Scriptures yourself. I do not pretend to understand how difficult it must be for you, but if Jesus endured the cross for our sake nothing is too small to sacrifice for him.

We all have our own struggles against our sinful nature and our own weaknesses. Pardon my harse words but I think you would be presumptous to say that you are justified to live in sin simply because your struggle is more difficult than ours.

My heterosexual desires for attractive women are as natural to me as breathing. But I must struggle against my desire to entertain thoughts of sexual immorality while I live my single life every day. Sometimes I fail, in which case I repent and cling to the forgiveness that is in Jesus. I can’t simply stop struggling because it is easy.

I also encourage you to read the book “What Some of You Were” [http://secure.fellowworkers.com/cgi-bin/mmstore/wsyw.html]. It’s a collection of Christian homosexuals’ testimonies and their failures and successes in their struggle.

Regarding other type of sins that you mentioned (eg. adultery) its the same with homosexuality and there is no difference in front of God’s eyes. Although its true that those people might be treated nicer that you are, and I’m sorry for that. They are welcome to church (just as you are also welcome) but I’ll still call on them to repent, just as I’m calling you to repent.

Let me bring something else into this discussion if I may. I am right-handed. Are those or you who are left-handed abnormal? Well, perhaps statistically, but I have to say “NO.” It is another variation of “handed-ness’ ; most are right-handed, some are left-handed. I don’t understand how or why they are lefties, and it is completely unnatural for me to do things left-handed, but it’s fine for them. It is equally difficult for them to do thing right-handed. It is their nature and neither is right or wrong (although the world is more difficult in some regards for lefties!). I do believe there is a Biblical reference to the evils of left-handed folk somewhere, but I’m not entirely certain of it; I am not a theologian. My sexuality is very like that; a variation of human sexuality, but neither right nor wrong.

Something else I need you to consider when dealing with gay folk. I understand what many of you have said about the need to repent, and that gay folks ‘who repent’ are welcome (please forgive the “Reader’s Digest” version of the statements). So, let me try a slightly different angle on the point I am trying to illustrate, and it ties in with the last entry.

I imagine that there are any number of divorced and remarried people attending your churches. Technically, those are adulterers (with the possible exception of those cases in which an annullment has happened). Yet, they, too are welcome in the church, and may be able to play an active role in the church. I’ll even presume that largely their status is essentially the same as anyone else in the church. But, if they are adulterers, as I am assuming you would have to say they are, if they have repented of their sin, they are still continuing to live an adulterous relationship. How can they have repented? Perhaps I am unclear on the concept of repentance. You do not ask them to “hide” their relationship, nor do you ask them to pretend that they are not still living in sin. You do not ask them to renounce their new marriage. Many of them even remarry in the church.

They continue, every time they are together sexually, to commit adultery. By that reckoning, what would repentence look like to them — and to me?

My guess is that you would first ask me to recognize that the scriptures tell me my nature is wrong. I do recognize that the scripture condemns gay acts (see my earlier assertions). I would also have to assume that you would do the same for divorced and remaried couples in your church, reemphasizing to them that they are adulterers.

My guess about the next step is that you would ask me to recognize the evil of gay acts, and that it is a sin. I have addressed that in some earlier entries, and for straight people to engage in gay sex is a sin. I would also, again, have to assume that you would do the same, though, for divorced and remarried couples in your church. That you would tell them that any sexual pleasure they derive from one another is a sin. They should repent(?).

If you ask them to repent, what would that mean to them? Would you need for a divorced and remarried man to give up his new wife? Would he be required to forego relations with his new wife? I believe I read a number of references that implied or stated that I would have to give up my life with and my relations with my partner in order to repent.

The point I am trying to illustrate here is that adultery, by my reading, is one the specific items God referred to in the Ten Commandments. Yet, in the church in which I worshipped as a “straight” married man, there were many people who were divorced and remarried, and were actively welcomed to the church. While I realize that churches are different from location to location, those I would have to call adulterers continued to commit adultery. Yet they were on committees, and held ministerial positions, and received all of the sacraments the rest of us received. A gay couple at that same church was told that they were free to worship “if they’d like,” but they were not welcome to be a part of the church life, including the donuts and coffee afterward!

I think that divorced and remarried people need a place and a space to worship with their community — even if they are on multiple marriages. They can read the Word as well as anyone can. They can develop music programs, and Sunday school programs, and teach the little ones. They can lead Bible study groups and minister to the less fortunate in the church community. No one asks them to give up their spouse. No one asks them to live a celibate life. No one asks them to change their lifestyle one bit. But a gay man can’t do the same?

So, what does repentance look like for an adulterer? What does repentence look like for a gay man? Why is it different? If it’s not different, why is it being treated differently? And do you apply the same standard to the lefties in the church?

Thanks!