Usually people think that good man goes to heaven and bad man goes to hell, because we believe there is some sort of justice system in this world. Well, maybe not in this world all the time, but at least this “sovereign divine being out there” must do better than the rulers and governors over here, right? The baddies might be able to escape from the justice system in this world, but our God will surely punish them on that final Judgement day. And being a nice, kind and loving person, God might let me through the pearly gate…
From the Bible, Christian God is a just God (i.e. someone who exercise justice), but Christians believe that good man actually goes to hell, but professed baddies are the ones end up in heaven. Jesus taught in the following parable:
10“Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: ‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’
13But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”Luke 18:10-14 WEB
Why is the oh-so-nice Pharisees not justified, but the scum-of-the-earth tax collector is?
First of all, we need to define the terms good and bad here. What/who defines a man as good? Number of times you help the old ladies to get across the street? Number of 10 commandments that you have kept? As long as you are above average, then you are considered good? Let’s see what the Bible says:
10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous. No, not one.
11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, No, not, so much as one.”Romans 3:10-12 WEB
It does not actually tell us the filtering algorithms that God uses to separate the good guys from the baddies. It only tells us the number of good guys out there – no one, not even one! We all have turned away from God, rejected him as our creator and ruler, and crowned ourselves to be our little kings. We are all baddies in God’s sight, and that means everyone of us – you and me, Aussies and Chinese, Christians and non-Christians – we are all criminals before God. What does that imply? None of us can pass his judgement, and hell will be the next stop for all of us.
Trying to do good to win God’s favour is like trying to study for the exam that you’ll never pass. The only hope we have is God might have mercy on some of us. In fact, he did show his love and mercy in his son Jesus, and at the cross, his justice and his love are both satisfied. We can be saved, if we do confess that we are baddies, and place our trust on Jesus that his death is enough to pay for my guilt. Thus, baddies can go to heaven.
What about the good guys then? There are no real righteous man from God’s point of view, except the man Jesus along. All the other so-called good guys trust no one but themselves. They need no God because they think they can run their lives themselves, and they might even out-smart God in His judgement scheme. When the judgement comes, those good guys appear not so good in God’s standard. And by relying solely on themselves, where will they end up with?
I’d like to make positive noises about your site in general.
..but I do take issue with this “Good men go to heaven,…” thesis. In an absolute sense it’s utterly wrong.
If it were true, then it would make doing good things into a purely selfish act – ie to make it into heaven. This is just swapping one form of self-interest for another, more encompassing one. A more long-term investment – one could say.
This is the (IMHO) rather indeniable flaw in (at least the popular face) all religions that appear to offer some kind of award scheme. Eastern Karmic models are, at the end of the day, just the same.
Hypothetically speaking, if God said to you that he/she was quitting, self-destructing, and that from now on the universe would be an empty place, with nothing other than the Material to offer, and that when you die that would be IT. Nothing. Oblivion. What would you do ?
Of course, as I believe you are a “good” person, you would continue to let your sense of goodness guide you, and continue to sacrifice your interests in this life according to your belief in that code. It is this – and only this – that should be our measure. In fact, on could suggest that a good atheist is better than a good agnostic, or a good believer, since the first of these neither seeks nor expects any reward AT ANY POINT IN ETERNITY.
This is not to question your belief, or to question any belief.
What do you think ?
* Hypothetically speaking, if God said … when you die that would be IT. Nothing. Oblivion. What would you do ?
Nothing. Why do anything? There is no point in doing anything. Nil. Nada. Zero. Zilch. If death is the end, then what we do here and now is meaningless. If death is the end, then let us eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die (and disappear).
Hi Scott,
interesting thoughts you have. there’s another at http://www.bible-truths.com by Ray Smith regarding the parable of lazarus and the rich man. i have a feeling you’ll find it verrrry interesting…
I don’t understand how people can still think that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell.
God’s original purpose for the earth and humans was for humans to spread among the earth and cultivate it and watch over the animals.
Assuming 50% of people are good and go up to heaven, and the other 50% go to hell, who’s going to be left on the earth’s surface? To complete God’s original purpose?
Doesn’t seem that someone as powerful and wise as God would allow his original plan to go unfinished…
Hiya! I somehow stumbled upon your site and this page and wanted to comment. Given your thesis, it would seem there is no point in being good or charitable or loving… one might as well be be a bad person. That can’t be right.
I agree with the first commenter that the “good” people who are going to hell aren’t truly good—they are people like the Pharisee who only act good on the outside in order to win favor and exalt themselves—they are actually acting out of selfishness. I believe genuine goodness comes from acknowledging your sins and striving to do good, while also acknowledging that all good comes from God.
Furthermore, I would add that God wants us to be happy, both in this world and the next. Being good is the guide to true happiness.
George,
>>> it would seem there is no point in being good or charitable or loving… one might as well be be a bad person.
So the “point” according to you is still winning your way to heaven, and if it is not the rule of the game, then there would be “no point”? There are many reasons to be a good person, and God has called people to do good works that He has prepared. And if you are a person who loves God, then you *ought* to follow his commands and do good! But none of them entitles your ticket to heaven. Salvation is by grace along, and no one can bargain with God with the good things he/she has done.
>>> I would add that God wants us to be happy, both in this world and the next. Being good is the guide to true happiness.
Not sure about “happiness”, but God wants us to bring glory to Him and praise Him, both in this world and the next. Being good helps that.
Wow, I stumbled on this site while I was trying to fix a problem with my Linux e-mail server…
George,
Our good works flow out of our love for Christ and our thankfullness for what he did on the cross for us. If you do good out of some “Obligation” to God your good works will be empty.
“Cheer up George… your worse than you think… and God’s grace is even bigger than you have ever imagined.”
That is a quote from Jack Miller who started World Harvest Mission. http://www.whm.org/
It just means that when we truly see the sin in our lives, (and I’m not just talking about technicolor sin here) and see how totally depraved we are, it is only then that we see how much we need Christ. Here is an equation for you:
Small view of your sin = Small Christ
Big view of your sin = Big Christ
When we are blind to our sins we deny the need for forgiveness and make Christ’s death on the cross worthless in our eyes.
I need Christ every day. Every day I need to die to myself and my selfish desires and cling to Christ. This stuff is so easy to forget. We have to constantly be preaching the Gospel to ourselves and each other.
Paul
Scott, get a life. You are very sad! Spending all your time on this stupid website. Do yourself a favour and shoot yourself, and see whether you go to heaven or hell.
Mr. Dead from Internode,
Yes. Thanks for reminding me! I do have a life. In fact, an “eternal life” that God has promised me through the blood of Christ. Do you want to know more?
Scott Yang,
I wanted to write regarding your statement “None of us can pass his judgement, and hell will be the next stop for all of us.”
In your essay you base this statement on a parable, and a short verse from Romans. I think perhaps you missed the point of the parable. We are all sinners, and none of us is perfect. But he who asks for forgiveness (and MEANS IT!) will be forgiven. We should all ask for forgiveness and try to be better people.
Regarding the quote from Romans, read the rest of the passage! That little quote was justification for why God put Jesus on this earth, to save us. We WERE all of those things.
Just my 2 cents. :)
Rachel,
Thanks for clarification.
All men are sinners and we cannot escape hell – by ourselves. But,
The whole idea of Christianity is about how God rescued “bad people”, instead of people trying to be good to win God’s favour.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head, scotty. Thanks for the info on mailman setup, the very nice site design, and the right-on explanation of the work of Jesus on our behalf. Cheers to you and yours!
–gabe
Pls. help me I have an assignment in our bible study class. Pls. share to me your answer.I want to know whether God can be present in hell and whether the righteous can be in hell. Support your stand with biblical reference. Thank you! God bless!
Hi, There, I just want to tell you that I found very useful your website, It helped me, so much in order to find the way to a trouble..
Thanks sincerely.
Noe Monreal
http://noe.com.mx
Aw, bro’, I just love those christian Hacker-Sites! Jesus + Open Source is what makes life bearable.
Your brother in the Lord
Matthias
Hi Scott, I’m so excited to find another believer working in the IT industry. I was searching on Google looking for some info about Macs and stumbled across you site dealing with Mac laptop specials at Domayne.
I’ve just commenced work for the day so don’t have time to read all you pages, but from the little I have read, ie your testimony, I feel a wonderful rapport with you.
I found Christ – or I should really say He found me – almost 18 years ago and my life has never been so exciting.
Every day is a new day – literally – as His Spirit continues to show me things I had never seen or understood before.
I am really looking forward to finding time to read some more of your articles when I have the spare time. I can hardly wait – I love the way you think. Obviously the spirit of God is upon you! Praise the Lord!
Wonderful to meet you and see how God has and is changing your life for good.
Be blessed in the knowledge that he has a divine plan for you – a plan to prosper you and not do you harm.
Warmest regards,
Lionel…
This site is quite interesting i used it to get a good view on HEAVEN and HELL for my ethics and society homework! Thanks it is well set up to!
As I see it, we continually struggle in confusing the gift of God love and our own human actions. Likewise, we tend to confuse rewards and intention.
If anyone experience life as it was created to be, in this world or whatever shall follow, it is first and foremost because God made it happen. We are unable to be good enough to deserve God’s love and the benefits therein. Rather, God is a loving God. It is God’s essence, nature, and character to be loving. Thus, in such divine love, God accepts us and (for lack of a better term) “adopts” us into a relationship. Yey, like an adoption, we can choose to accept that identity or refuse to accept the same. Futhermore, when we accept the reality that in God’s love “we are accepted” we not only choose to be our “true” self; but, it is God who has made that possibility of freedom in choice possible. Hence, God is always the One who is the primary and first movement. It is in God’s movement toward us that we can move toward God.
On a like note, the purpose of accepting our acceptance and living into what is our “true” self is not to get into heaven. If so, that would be like dangling a carrot in front of a stubborn mule to get it to move forward. While God does promise that life in an eternal fulfillment of all that life was ever meant to be can be ours in this lifetime and that which is to come, it is not some kind of reward that we earn or achieve. No matter how good a person might be in their behavior and the intentions behind such behavior, while we might be able to do god things for the right reason, we are unable to win God’s love or be worthy of the same. Remember, love is a gift and as such it is freely given without condition (i.e. agape). While life that is more abundantly fulfilling in this world, and an eternity of something beyond our wildest dreams or expectations are the reality prommised by God within divine love, the impetus for accepting our acceptance is not to gain the prize but to be true to God, true to self, and true to one another. Once again, remember, it is the true self that we accept in accepting our acceptance. Thus, in choosing to be our true self, by God making that possible for us, we begin a life long process of growing and deepening into what God created us to be, namely — loving people who live a life that honors God in reverance and joy, who love ourselves enough to be good to ourselves (in the best and fullest understanding of what “good” can mean), and love each other and all people. Again, this love is neither romantic, self-serving, or erotic (as modernity has help beginning in the time of the Romanticism of Europe that flourished in the Enlightenment and beyond).
The song by Jon Lennon makes such a good point for us to understand and take seriously: “imagine there’s no heaven … nothing above … nothing underneath … only what we have here on earth …” The point, as I intend it to be, is not a negation or confinement of God in terms of what is possible here and now and what eternity shall bring. Rather, it seems to me that those who “accept their acceptance” do so with an awareness that it will have significant and perhaps awesome ramifications in make this world a better place for everyone! Second to this, of course, is the reality that deep inside each of us is the yearning and longing, the desire and seeking, the striving and hoping that there is more to us, to life, to the world than what first meets our eye (and our experience). To state the same in a way of rhetorical question: “If we were created to be more than we can become on our own, but becoming such was given to us as an option by something … some ONE … outside of ourselves, would we not choose to to become more?”
Still, it is not meant to be either simplistic or necessariu easy. There is a real challenge and process of wrestling with all the alternatives (even wrestling with God in that God sometimes wants something for us that is better than what we want for ourselves, but what we want for ourselves seems to have a way of being dominant in our life and choices). The choice is simple … the process is simple … the reality is simple … but it is never simplistic!
So, given the challenge (which seemingly always includes “growing pains” in change and the reality of “hardship” due to living as our true selves in a culture that is oriented more around the notion of rewarding and justifying the “false” self we often choose to be) why would we “accept our acceptance”? Only because that is the way that moves us into what we and the whole world truly needs: justice, peace, respect, affirmation, inclusiveness, unity in diversity, acceptance of others, mercy, compassion, forgiveness, reconciliation, meaning, integrity, and being genuine.
Oh, by the way, when it comes to questions about people within other religious traditions, other than what has come to be known as Christianity (although that itself is quite difficult to define in a post modern world of emerging experiential and relational understandings and values of God, ourselves, and the whole human family, along with the entire cosmos), no one can limit God as in claiming that God accepts only people who are this, that, or the other. The Hebrew people were, are, and always chosen by God. Once chosen, does God change her mind? I tend to prefer, be it error, to err on the side of worshiping and serving an inclusive God. I mean, when a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, person of Hindu, Taoist, a member of the Jewish tradition, et cetera, pray or are in meditative/contemplative/devotional attentiveness to the Divine … the Other … the God-dess … the Supreme Being … are they not all connecting and in communion with the same God and one another?
That being said, might it suffice to say, we tend to be our own worst enemy … evil does not exist apart from the human will, heart, mind, soul. God is always more willing to extend that Divine acceptance than we to accept the same, claim it as our idenity and purpose, and live in it … love through it … and find joy within it.
[for a wonderful expression of "accepting our acceptance" one might wish to read the sermon by that title as written and preached by Paul Tillich. It is one of the all time best expressions of what has been talked about as "grace" ... "justification" ... "righteousness" ... "healing" ... and so on]
mishpat … hesed … hasnea … always and forever.
G Dylan
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This is a great post! Praise God!
I think it’s so great that sites like this exist. I myself am a very inquisitive person and to me reading such intelligent views about God (also refering to the other comments) is a huge help to me spiritally. I actually think that deep conversations about God strengthens my faith a lot more than church services do. Thinking about it logically, the opportunity of an eternal bond with God that every person on earth has is an incredible one. It makes you want to cry with joy. Anyway, I’m not really commenting on the text, but still.
Something I have noticed in my school recently has really saddened and shocked me. The school would have a reading in assembly with a prayer, so it is a ‘christian’ school. But it seems that the only great minority believe! So many people don’t believe because they think that they are beyond the ‘idea’ of God. I have actually been through this phase myself. Often, as a child, living a Christian life becomes very routine. And they never think twice about whether it’s true or not. But then they think about, and stop believing. I personally was influenced by imformation about the universe(I never stopped believing, but lost a lot of faith). Then, thinking about it even deeper still, there had to be a creator of everything! Once I had established this, it did not take long to realise that morals of the Bible were perfect. Then, wether the Bible was the exact answer or not, it was the closest thing to it that the Creator had provided us with.
I think it is very hard these days for some people though. Info on the unerverse is so detailed and coloured, and when compared to the reasonably small scale of Bible stories it seems hard conect them. It is so hard to even get close to grasping the size and awesomeness of our Father. It needs a strong imagination anyway.
In conclusion, I really think that these people who suffer from such blindness to there own Father should be given more help. I know what it is like to look down at the ‘ideas’ of Christianity. These people are so sure of their lives, that the whole thing needs to be firstly explained extremely logically to them. Anyway gotta go! See yaz all! + GOD bless ya!
I think that by jesus sacrificing himself for our sins so we could go to heaven, he earned the right to choose who he wanted to let in and not let in. I think he bases it on whether or not you follow his teachings, which were: love, compassion, tolerance, and charity. By following these teachings and living as an image of him you are worthy of god’s love. As jesus says in Mathew:
“the merciful shall be shown mercy.”
I think, religion aside, that by following Jesus’ teachings you are worthy to meet god. Saying that you could only go to heaven if you are a christian would be condeming people like Ghandi, who did more for their fellow man than many christians.
Hello dear brothers and sisters. Jesus has told us without question who will go to heaven. Jesus was the most articulate man who ever lived. His truth is clear to those who will hear. In the 7th chapter of Mathew he not only tells who is going, but who is not! There is a web site at http://www.whogoestoheaven.com that explores this subject in greater detail than any I have found in 20 years.
I just want to say thank you. My husband and I are both believers, but lately my husband has been questioning a lot of things. So I have taken it upon myself to do some research so that I have a better understanding of the Lord’s Word. I agree with what is on this site, and though it gave me no new thoughts or knowledge, it was refreshing to see so many other believers!
A criminal who knows breaking the law is wrong. Will still go to jail for the crime. Is it the same with God if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and God raised him from the dead on the third day. But fail to serve him. What will happen?
Judgement will come to everyone, weather they want it to or not. Time is the only thing keeping us from ‘him’, in time the righteous and truthful we receive what they earn… and those would do the deeds of wrong shall also face the greatest justice. One that bounds them for eternity… and will do so until the end of the absolute. The only way to know the truth is to wait.
I am that frightened of going to hell, its ruining my life-literally.
I spend every day afraid of doing anything.
I have said sorry every day for my sins, but how do i know if i am forgiven? I have never heard god speak to me or anything like that.
also i bumped into the vicar next door the oher day, and he was saying that the people who pinched the lead of his church would be eternally damned. I asked what would happen if both fell off the roof, but one managed to repent before he dies– his answer was the repentent one would be okay.
it all seems like a very frightening lottery to me. I cannot promise i will never sin again, so by definition, ive had it. I wish i hadnt been born, rather than be put to the test for the whole of my life, and then spend the rest of eternity in hell
Great post… both funny and right on the money. God Bless